An interesting discussion of real life spanking/CP
September 16th, 2009 | Author: Zille
Amazon.com is the last place I would have expected to find a far-ranging and at times very intelligent discussion of spanking — not the consensual adult kind, but the actual raising-your-child kind, upon which us pervy adults base most of our role-play.
The discussion starts out basically as an advertisement for the No-Spank unilateralists. But then, some reasonable people weigh in:
Anonymous says: Michael, I spanked my kids and they lived to tell the tale! They were always warned first and if the behavior didn’t change they got 3 swats on that padded spot! I was spanked growing up and it was always deserved! It does, IMO, have a place in raising a kid at times. That being said I had one kid that I could always talk and explain things to, from a young age. He got spanked when it was deserved though. The next one was the type you had to smack him to get his attention and then spank him for his misdeed. Both have grown up to be fine, productive men.
Ricky B. says: Unfortunately Anonymous, you are now a child abuser according to Michael. This is where its funny, its either his way or you’re an abuser. Michael you talk so much of other people being open minded yet it seems you have a closed mind yourself. I agree spanking is not a be all end all punishment. But at times it does have a place.
ALL kids try to push boundaries and see what they can get away with. And at times a simple “talking to” or grounding, or even scolding isnt enough to deter that behavior. And while some children can respond and listen well, there are some that can’t. I talked beforre about my uncle, they don’t believe in spanking their children. Their daughter has grown up so far to be a mature, and responsible person. She listens to them, doesn’t act up and has respect for other people. Their son however, decided at an early age that he didn’t have to listen to mom and dad. They’ve disciplined him multiple times, but he knows there is no follow through if he just ignores the discipline. He gets grounded, he’ll just leave anyways. I’ll say it, the kid is a little brat, he treats his parents and most of the other family with no respect. IMO in that sort of instance where other discipline isn’t working, then yes, a swat on the butt to show the kid that there ARE going to be consequences is a helpful form of punishment.
Though I know I’m wasting my time even trying to tell you, you’ll just go on your “its all abuse and pain makes children serial killers”. Let me guess, you’re one of those people who support the “everyone gets a medal” sports they’re doing at schools now too? We don’t want any of our children actually believing they have to work hard to do something or that there *gasp* are actually people that are better at things than other people in the world.
One has to wonder if being spanked as a kid can help people to learn how to be reasonable and see the world from more than one point of view! 
Seriously, where I weigh in on this is that A.) I don’t think that I received enough helpful discipline growing up — and I certainly got too much of the “Oh, you are the next Picasso!” when I managed to complete a finger-painting, or “You are a genius!” when I managed to come to a reasonable conclusion in a paper. (Mostly from my parents, this must be said. My school was actually pretty good at being encouraging without going overboard. I do shudder to admit this, because when I complained about the school, my mom did tell me that I was getting a good education, and that I would appreciate it someday! [sighs])
Being told I was a genius, when an IQ test would have told another story, didn’t help me in life. The day I suddenly realized that I was not a genius was very painful, and I really could have skipped the pain of having that (entirely unnecessary) bubble burst!
Having been taught some self-discipline (by means of external discipline) would have come in very handy! I can tell you for certain that having to try and learn it on your own, as an adult, is no fun at all, and it makes me feel like an emotional and intellectual cripple, at times. One minor example: my mom keeps a Better-Homes-And-Gardens-ready house at all times. She balances her check-book every month. She told me that I should do these things, but she never gave me real incentive (like, “if you don’t keep your room clean, X, Y, or Z will happen”) and so in the end, I didn’t get in the habit of doing those things, and now I struggle to get in that habit, and better organize my life — and it’s a bit odd to me that she valued neatness and organization so much, but couldn’t be bothered to properly instil those values in me.
As a teenager, I could (and did!) say, “Fuck off!” to her. She didn’t like it … but a later half-hearted apology could get me out of all trouble. Even at the time, I was amazed she let me get away with it — but there was no way I wasn’t going to take advantage of it! In the years since leaving the nest, I’ve had real trouble, when fighting with a partner, not to say hurtful and thoughtless things. I’ve been working on it for years, and I think my Master would say I’m not too bad now (he was willing to marry me, after all!) but the fact of the matter is that if I had had to learn to moderate my speech for fear of consequences in my youth, I’d it would have been easier to moderate my speech (for fear of the consequences of hurting my partner’s feelings, or even just not wanting to shoot off my mouth and sound like an ass) in my adult years.
So, yes, I’m for spanking or some other form of reasonable discipline for children. I’ve seen kids go off into fits where only “a short sharp shock” would end the selfish hysterics. (One girl I know of got shoved in a cold shower — fully dressed — to put an end to her screeching fit. It seems entirely reasonable.)
I don’t know why everyone who is into spanking as an adult has gotten their interest in it. But I know where mine came from: I want to feel loved, and knowing someone is willing to discipline me is proof of love in my head. And I have felt this way, actually, since I was a very young kid. I spent my whole childhood longing to be properly disciplined. Sure, at the time I’d never have admitted it! I would have pouted and sulked and complained, as any child does who can’t get their way for whatever reason. But under that, I would have cherished knowing that some cared about me in that way — someone would pay that much attention to me. And indeed, much of childhood bad behaviour is “acting out” — trying to get attention. Who knows how much less need kids would have to “act out,” if they knew someone was paying attention, and their efforts would get immediate results (if not perhaps entirely the most desired results!)
Anyway, it’s a moot point — I won’t be having children (for health reasons), and so I can’t try out my personal social experiments on them (which, before you get all upset, is, when you think about it, what every parent does!) However, for me personally, I am lucky — I’ve found someone who is able to love me that way (and wanted someone he could love that way!) and so I am able to get some of the discipline I didn’t get before. And, one hopes, because I can actually “sign up” for the course (and my brains are as developed as they are going to get), it should be more efficacious, faster, than actually going through childhood all over again!
Shadow Lane Video Clips
Northern Spanking
I Feel Myself.com
The Amazon exchange sounds like the same people whose arguments infested alt.sex.spanking years ago, only with a touch more civility. One has to wonder if it will turn into a flame war when “Michael” responds.
I would say that spanking is not ALWAYS wrong, but it will still never be used in our house. To be frank, Chris and I are spankos. (Surprise, surprise.) We associate our sexuality with spanking, the same that other people find nipple rubbing and ear biting arousing. We simply do not do the things that are, with our partners, sexual, with our children. Certainly I understand that it isn’t the same with the princess as it is with Chris but it’s irrelevant, to my mind. This is a boundary that I cannot cross, and frankly do not wish to (although heaven knows I understand the temptation). Perhaps/hopefully other parents can compartmentalize, but the whole notion of spanking the princess seems utterly and awfully wrong and icky, you know?
From the child’s perspective, my dad spanked me 2-3 times, ending about the time I was 6. I remember only once having to “come and get a spanking” and I think it was because they couldn’t think up a more appropriate punishment for eating dirt under the apple trees. I can’t imagine how it contributed, if any, to my sexuality but the sub-conscious is a strange thing.
s
Zille, your story leads me to wonder if, in general, a lack of structure in childhood leads to an interest in discipline in adulthood. You’re not the first person from whom I’ve heard who had these kinds of longing while growing up.
Zille, I agree with Serenity with respect to parents who are into spanking or CP as foreplay or as sexual stimulus. The danger here is of possible crossover which could lead to very unhealthy situations.
Karl also has a point, most of the younger spankos that I know were not disciplined as children.
I was disciplined severely up to the age of about thirteen at the orphanage,
what effect this had on me I don’t really know.
I would never recommend this level of severity, if the master had done this today he would almost certainly be in prison.
Yet I’m most definitely a spanko, for me spanking and especially caning is highly erotic.
Love and warm hugs,
Paul.
Paul, I would elaborate on my theory to propose that lack of form and structure in child raising could lead to adults who are still seeking for that form and structure in adulthood — those would be people looking for a primarily submissive-style relationship.
From what you say, it sounds like those who managed your childhood erred perhaps more in the other direction — that being an excess of structure to the point of repression. And yes, you’re a spanko, but do you regard yourself as submissive?
Of course my theory doesn’t really account for how dominant personalities come to be developed, given the child-rearing fashions of recent times, although the fashion for lack of structure is far from all-pervasive. I’m sure even now there are lots of traditional-style families still functioning in various subcultures.
Still, I don’t think I’m ready to venture the opinion that a repressive childhood breeds dominants. I somehow doubt it’s that simple, though a repressive childhood certainly does provide dominant role models for those who are inclined that way.
I must say I hadn’t intended to get all psychological about this stuff, Zille, but reading your post and having heard similar sentiments expressed before by a hard-core sub I’ve read a lot from, are leading me to these thoughts.
And I’d love to know what you and others make of them….
And of course, widespread interest in spanking is not so new. It was already seething in the 40s and 50s if not earlier. See this post for evidence: http://spankoz.blogspot.com/2009/09/vintage-spanking-who-we-were-snapshot.html?zx=35344241fc0e85c
But I think the post-internet age has brought a new self-awareness and subcultural awareness in which people become aware that while they may have this weird interest, they’re part of a vast community of others who share a similar fascination.
But back well before the rise of feminism and modern concepts of political correctness, I think the spanking interest was strong and thriving, it just wasn’t the subject of so much self-reflection or conscious cultivation.
And so my point is, even in times when family life was more traditional, spanko culture of a sort was still strong — though you could argue that most of the enjoyment at the time was on the part of the dominants, and the idea of submissive pleasure was perhaps not so well documented as it is today, if in fact it existed to the same degree.
While this is stuff not usually discussed in spanko circles, I think Zille has opened a lovely can of worms here.
And I’d really love to know what do other folks think about all this?
Serenity — Well, there are 5633 posts in the discussion on Amazon, so I assume there are some flame wars in there!
I totally see your point, and, as someone who has not and will not being raising a child, my point of view is a lot less meaningful than yours!
That said, I think that in the past, people were able to compartmentalize that sort of thing better. It was understood that Mom’s old peach switch, taken to a child’s bottom for climbing the tree after being told not to, was entirely different from hauling your girlfriend over your lap for a bit of spanky-bot-bot. Or, maybe actually it was that those things weren’t so different! Women were as much “dependents” on men as were the children, so maybe one just swatted both as one saw fit, and then you sent your kid to go cry in the nursery, but took your wife to the bedroom…?
(This is leaving out any discussion of pedophilia, which is not something I want to cloud the issue for the moment. And anyway, the discussion is already so lively I can barely keep up with it! So let’s just assume that for all previous and future discussion in this post, that we are not talking about that sort of thing, and non of the adults we are discussing have those sorts of urges.)
Anyway, what I’m trying to get at is that there must be a way to keep CP of children and adult CP games separate in a person’s mind and life. I know that in my Master’s and my relationship, we keep things separate between real life punishments and play-time stuff by having one implement (the paddle) that is used only for the former. We try to keep behavior modification separate from kinky fun, because we don’t want to fall into the trap of me seriously acting bad to get attention.
Paul and Karl — I have lots to contribute to this discussion, but I have to get some other stuff done! I’ll be back to join in soonest! Karl, this is all very thought-provoking, so no worries — please keep this up, because I’m as interested in the results as you are!
Hey good stuff…keep up the good work! I read a lot of blogs on a daily basis and for the most part, people lack substance but, I just wanted to make a quick comment to say I’m glad I found your blog. Thanks,)
A definite great read…:)
I’m not sure I can see any reason to think that people were better able to compartmentalize CP in parenting and CP in adult relationships in the past than they are now. I suspect it either didn’t occur to them that there was an issue, or society as a whole didn’t really care – for the reason that, as you suggest, both women and children were more or less possessed by men, and how they were treated was seen as no-one else’s business.
An analogy with separation of play and punishment aspects of an adult relationship strikes me as difficult. Partly it’s the risk involved. If things go wrong between two adults, and the lines between play CP and punishment CP get blurred, it might be fine, it might not be fine. But whatever happens, there can be some informed discussion, negotiation, etc., etc., and hopefully things can be set right. If the lines between play CP (with an adult partner) and punishment CP (with a child) were blurred, that would be a profound betrayal. Worse, it’s entirely likely that the child would have little or no power to set things right, or to make it known that something was wrong. They might not even be able to articulate until much later what had happened.
I don’t think CP is always abuse, but nor do I think that any child *needs* it. Which isn’t to say that there aren’t kids for whom it works, or at least is neutral; just that there are other methods of discipline which work as well. Given that assumption, trying to do the compartmentalization thing seems unnecessarily risky to me. If it were somehow known that some kid unequivocally *needed* CP (for the sake of argument), parents into CP as part of their relationship might be justified in trying to walk the line, but in the absence of that knowledge, and with many other disciplinary tools in their toolbag, it’s not clear to me why it’s worth going there.
You know, I think this is the first civil discussion I have ever read on this issue! My own views are very similar to Serenity’s and Paul@NG’s. Still, I have the same knee-jerk reaction you do to the over the top One True Wayers.