Spanking for punishment, and the dubious superiority of DD over BDSM
February 6th, 2009 | Author: Zille
I think I’m going to take a page from kaya’s book and use FetLife conversations to A.) fill in for a proper blog post [sticks out tongue at kaya] and B.) get some conversation happening. Although my topic is not going to be so controversial as kaya’s is. Man, that gal knows how to find all the heated debates and then say the most un-P.C. things. It’s a serious skill! 
So, anyway, recently on FetLife, in the group, “A Sound Spanking,” this question was posted:
spanked for punishment…why can’t doms see that…
….this is and can still be an effective way to chastise?
I know the argument against this is that if someone loves to be spanked and if they get in trouble then aren’t you giving them what they love?Could it be that some of those Doms just don’t like spanking as much as they want to find some other sadistic thing to do??? (just a thought that occurred to me as I was about ready to post this)
But…….Unless someone can prove it otherwise to me personally….the theory of it being an enjoyable thing even for punishment, isn’t true for ME.
(I suppose if they’re with someone who they’ve found can take everything they’ve got to give in this area and still be begging for more…then maybe there’s A FEW real masochists that this MIGHT be true for?)
Two things to this.
1. I guess it would take a Dom who knows the difference between an erotic spanking and one that is intended to hurt like hell and is capable of delivering the second with the intended message.
Me personally, I’m finding out I can take a pretty nice long warmed up spanking with the hand and a few implements but I would think a punishment one would be given COMPLETELY different and far beyond the squirmy “ouch” that I’ve experienced.
I’ve heard many ppl who are into spanking for punishment say they make them A)harder and without warm ups and B) with some implement that the person receiving really hates. (I can think of more than one thing that I already know would fit in that category…..and I’m not telling *sticks my tongue out.)
2)I guess it would take someone who is naturally into “correction” in both action and word. ie. a scolding or whatever you want to call it. Again, I think this part, if given to something I already felt bad about would be far harder to take than the physical aspect of a punishment. But I was with a Dom who couldn’t have pulled off one serious sentence believably, the one time he tried, I almost peed my pants from trying to hold back the laughter.
The other thing that I know well about myself is that I haven’t heard of anything else (other than a whipping/spanking) that would work on the “guilt” side of whatever happened. Either things mentioned are things I physically can not do (like the kneeling on rice) or they’re things I’d think were incredibly stupid and I’d resent them because they wouldn’t take care of the guilt that I feel needs to be addressed.
But that is just me and I REALLY don’t mean to offend any who it works for.
With that said…..if those things don’t work for me….why use them (or allow them to be used…it would be like being fake and artificial to me)??
Ok….please be kind….these are my issues with who I know I am and what I desire.
Does anyone have a suggestion to help me communicate that “other things wouldn’t work for me”? (or how to help the poor Dom who would be dealing not with any kind of guilt afterwards but more like resentment)?
***this certainly brings out the bratty side of me and I openly admit it.
Well, this is a topic near and dear to me, as my regulars know. So I had to jump in with my 2 cents, especially after another person posted this:
You, like me, are into real punishment. That is the need, that’s what does it for us, and other things will not do. A punishment beating is both corrective and pleasurable at the same time – its a need.
Unfortunately, bdsm’ers just don’t get it and, as a lady friend has recently said “if you have to explain it, there’s no point”. There is a tendency among them to think their “protocols” are where everybody should be, “one size fits all”. Well they’re not and it doesn’t.
My advice is to work with people from the spanking/corporal punishment subset – most likely to be found on spanking groups on this site and elsewhere. You’ll find the likeminded there. You may have other needs as well, which makes it more complicated, but that’s where you’ll find this particular mindset and skills.
Grrrrrrrrrr! That gets my undies in a right bundle, and no mistake! Anyway, so I said (is this getting to be like a teenager’s conversation, or is it just me?)
Hello! This is a topic I have given long and hard thought to, so I actually have answers for you!
But first I must say in response to: “You, like me, are into real punishment. That is the need, that’s what does it for us, and other things will not do. A punishment beating is both corrective and pleasurable at the same time – its a need. Unfortunately, bdsm’ers just don’t get it…”
You can’t just stuff all people into one category and have it fit. My Master and I are “BDSM-ers” and we understand real punishment and it is a part of our relationship.
I understand that some BDSM folk can get caught up in the leather protocol stuff and think it’s the end-all and be-all of the universe, but not everyone in the dungeon is like that. I’m so tired of DD, HOH, and just plain ol’ spankos thinking they are somehow better than BDSM people because they are into “real discipline,” while BDSM folk are just freaks playing with whips and chains.
DD is to some people’s taste, BDSM to others. One is not better or more real than the other. I know and appreciate both worlds, so I can assure you of this.
Anyway, back to you! Or, rather, first back to me…
I love spanking. And caning. And the tawse, belt, slipper, etc. (I also love hot candle wax and nipple clamps and tons of other things, but that’s outside the scope of this conversation!) My Master and I do spanking scenes most every weekend, and both of us have a wonderful time.
But, sometimes, I fuck up. And I need to be punished for it. I’m not saying that in a phone sex voice, like it’s a hot sex game. I mean I need to not only be corrected by corporal punishment, but I also need the emotional release of it — the assurance that my Master and I have dealt with that issue and put it to bed, and that I don’t have to feel any more guilt, or worry that he is harbouring resentment against me.
When that time comes, my Master has a number of tools, but none worst than the paddle. I hate the paddle — while I can take a caning or a birching, the paddle reduces me to a bawling and snivelling mess in no time. But I know I need to have it, and I go willingly into it.
But, really, he wouldn’t need the paddle. Because I think half of the punishment is just knowing I’ve let him down, and that this is not happy-spanking-time for us both, but a serious correction of my (mis)behaviour. That puts you in a very different head-space!
Of course, that’s all reasonably simple. It’s of course more complicated than that, because I fantasize about him punishing me, and he gets his hardest erections from punishing me (my … errr, yardstick of his arousal).
Getting ’round that in my head was tricky! But I finally figured it out, pretty recently, actually.
The fact that we both get aroused by the thought of punishment is not a bad thing, because that’s what led us to get into this kind of relationship in the first place. Without that desire, we would not have the perfect symbiosis that we do.
The thing that makes the punishment real and effective is that I don’t enjoy it AT THE TIME. That paddle hurts, and I’m upset because I feel bad about messing up and either hurting him or upsetting him. He might add kneeling on rice to the mix, just to get me in an even more vulnerable space. Whatever it is, I hate it while I’m going through it, and it takes all of my self-control not to run away screaming.
Later, though, when I’m alone with the vibrator, it’s the hottest fantasy I can have. And again, there’s nothing wrong with that, and I won’t act out or misbehave to get attention, because I know just how much the paddle hurts, and how much I want to avoid it making contact with my bottom. A punishment takes time away from when we could be doing a fun, mutually enjoyable scene, so it really behoves me to behave!
A masochist (or just plain spanko) can separate the “good pain” from the “bad pain.” I don’t get off on stubbing my toe, and the same way I don’t get off from my corporal punishment. I may fantasize about the CP later, and am unlikely to fantasize about toe-stubbing, but that simply meant that I looked for a partner who would be interested in having a disciplinary relationship with me.
Does that explanation help…? I know it was all about me, but I think those same things might be relevant for you!
As I say, regular readers will see I’ve referenced my own writing on this blog (say, f’r'instance Accepting / understanding my need for punishment) but it’s an idea I’m really excited about because I can finally explain myself to myself — and perhaps help other people figure things out as well.
Anyway, talk away, my friends. (I need a nickname for you guys. Adele uses “Munchkins,” which is just so darn cute!)
So, anyway, your mission, if you should choose to accept it, is to either
- Tell me your thoughts on the viability of spanking a masochist as a true punishment
- Argue with me that obviously DD/HOH people are vastly superior to those BDSM freaks, duh!
- Come up with a cute nickname for yourselves as a group
Your assignments are due by Monday, class, but feel free to work on them over the weekend — extra credit for those who do!
BTW, this was why the girl above was crying…
Ok, well I am not a masochist, my boyfriend is not a Dom, and we don’t identify with any of those subcultures, … but I enjoy being spanked. My boyfriend isn’t crazy about, and we both live in houses with other people, but when we are able he does indulge in it for me, because he knows I like it. (Just hand, although I’m working on a large paddle hairbrush I own…) It’s not something he needs to do for any sort of release or sexual pleasure, he just does it to please me.
In saying that, though, he has begun using it (of his own volition) as punishment. I am a student, and a terrible procrastinator and whinger. I whine and complain and get sulky and depressed when I have to do an assignment, and when I get into those states he will push me over and spank me until I stop snivelling and start my work. It’s not pleasant at the time but it makes me feel a lot better, because he is showing me that I am doing something wrong and it is just not acceptable behaviour, when I am past the point of listening to reason. He finds it a bit strange how cheery I get after a punishment spanking and how motivated I am (because even though I enjoy it, I don’t want it to happen again!) but he accepts it as part of who I am and is quite happy to go along with it.
I don’t think I can explain why I react in such different ways to the two different types of spanking. It’s in different contexts, for different reasons, but the pain is still the same. I think it is less a physical thing and more a psychological thing, when my brain is in sexy mode the pain is pleasurable, and when it is far from any sort of sex or spanking it is a shock to the system.
So sorry I can’t really offer any insight to your questions from the point of view of a D/s etc. relationship
(also, I generally call people ‘kittens’)
Hey Poppy — those spankings must be working, because you did this assignment right away! You get an “A+” for being the first to respond, and with such a cogent reply as well!
I’m not just looking for situations where people are in D/s relationships. I want to hear from everyone who enjoys a fun spanking but who needs real corporal discipline as well, and who differentiate, as you and I do.
Actually, you’ve just proved my point better than anyone else could. You are not in either the DD world or the BDSM world, and you still have the duality of spanking for fun and spanking for reals.
This is a valid thing, and does not exist just in the DD world, or the BDSM world, but the whole world!
I like “kittens”! We’ll see how the big studly men who comment on this blog feel about it, tho!
Thanks again, Poppy!
“I need to not only be corrected by corporal punishment, but I also need the emotional release of it — the assurance that my Master and I have dealt with that issue and put it to bed, and that I don’t have to feel any more guilt, or worry that he is harbouring resentment against me.”
That, and his understanding of how different this ‘once its done its done’ approach is so different from the damaging way I was punished as a child, is exactly why we use CP as punishment within our D/s relationship.
As someone who’s recently posted a ‘if you have to explain it there’s no point’ type of posting, I’ll happily leave it at that
love and hugs xxx
Hmmm. Well…
Like you Zille, I am hugely turned on by spanking/punishment scenarios. In fact, I don’t achieve orgasm without either thinking about, or participating in the control/pain mix.
Now. My owner will use me in ways I hate just for his amusement. It happens frequently. And being as I am a slave, I endure because that is my service to him. I might hate it while it’s happening, but my headspace is more one of serving, getting through it to be pleasing. Afterwards, I get this huge high from having served well and endured, even if I hated it at the time.
That being said, punishment spankings/whippings/beatings are different. The headspace definitely is different. It of course helps if the Dom/Owner is serious while doing it. Mine is deadpan. He is ALL business and strikes fear in me before he even shows me the implement of correction.
I often am crying even before the first strike lands, so it’s a very mental thing for me, and not at ALL pleasurable.
I have disobeyed. I have upset the balance of our power structure. I have to be returned to my proper place. And there’s a debt that must now be paid; it’s owed to my Master. And he takes that debt out on me in the form of a mega-painful and usually humiliating session on bare parts of my body.
It sucks; I hate it; I don’t want to be there for one single second of it while it’s going on. Once it’s over, as M:e said, it’s done, the debt’s been paid, and it is forgotten. But there’s no getting around the fact that it has to happen when I screw up.
Headspace is everything. Nice post.
Thank you M:e and Doubleknot! It’s nice to meet you, and thanks for stopping by with your great answers!
M:e — LOL about the As someone who’s recently posted a ‘if you have to explain it there’s no point’ type of posting, I’ll happily leave it at that
Doubleknot — I have been know to start crying before the first whack of the paddle! Mostly I manage to hold out until after the first or second!
I always think about spanking/punishment/painful anal sex (that sort of thing) to get off, or it ain’t happening!
Thanks again!
Zille, your solution sounds like it’s more fun and satisfying than the classic joke about the sadist and the masochist. — She enjoys being spanked, so when she’s bad, he won’t give her one.
Sounds like it’s really ALL about headspace and relational circumstances.
And Poppy, nice to have you sharing the results of your research here.
As for what to call us, I once had a teacher from Russia whose command of English was a little twisted, and who used to address the class as “peoples”. I thought that was cute. I’m not sure how that would go over for you, Zille, whose languaging is otherwise so perfect and articulate.
Well, not quite ALL. Severity is a factor too. When you’re spanking for fun it’s great to surf the threshold of tolerability, but spanking for discipline need not respect those sorts of limits.
Karl — I’ve heard that joke, and it always just seemed sad to me! Most likely because I’m a masochist!
Yes, precisely: circumstance and headspace (or “set and setting”) and then the consensuality of the severity. Well, I consent to all of it, actually, but he tries to make play-time fun for me, and he tries to make sure punishment isn’t (although, of course, it’s all fun for HIM, as it should be!)
“Peoples” is cute too! My list of options is quite good so far!
Hello…I posted on this subject at FetLife several times last November and December and finally gave up.
Here is how I explain it: A punishment fetishist is aroused by punishment — NOT the sensation of object against ass — but the process of being corrected for wrongdoing, of having their behavior shaped, of paying penance, and of being forgiven.
So if such a person is aroused by what you’re doing: GOOD. The idea that arousal automatically means, “they’ll misbehave so they can do it again” utterly misses the point. They are getting aroused BECAUSE of how powerful it is to be corrected, and painfully corrected, and persuaded to never misbehave again.
I daresay that the more aroused (ie, sopping wet) a discipline fetishist is during punishment, the LESS likely they are to commit that infraction again. For the most part, getting wet is unconscious and not inherently pleasurable anyway. I remember during one intense scene, I was ordered to strip so he could have his way with me, and I truly had no idea he’d be able to slip inside the way he did.
As for DD being superior to BDSM…well, I tend to say the Leatherfolk are superior to BDSM (they focus more on Dominance and submission or Master/slave relationships). More of them understand the relational issues of discipline, rather than just the smack-butt aspects of it, and I dislike DD’s sexism. I’ve also read DDers who are against BDSM because they are “just trying to get off.” Like there’s anything wrong with that!
But yes, I find that I’m quite out of sync with BDSMers. I’m not playing around with sensation. I’m being transformed, and transforming another.
Oh, and since I’m already up on this soapbox: I also find it disturbing by how many people think that ignoring a submissive is appropriate punishment. That to me says that the “Dominant” has no regard for the submissive’s emotional well-being whatsoever. I also don’t see what’s so “Dominant” about a man who, when confronted with a misbehaving, or emotionally needy, submissive, takes his toys and goes home, rather than addressing the situation as a Dominant. If you’re Dominant, you dominate the submissive into better behavior. That’s your job!