The difference between discipline & punishment
February 10th, 2009 | Author: Zille
The discussion from FetLife (Spanking for punishment, and the dubious superiority of DD over BDSM) still continues (that is, I’m still involved in it!) A fellow responded to the original post, saying,
For those of us who like it, spanking is a wonderful pastime at whatevever [sic] level of severity we willingly participate. Viewed dispassionately it is also a rather silly activity to be hooked on!
Enjoy it in your own way and for it’s own sake, as a thing you both need and crave.In meeting that need it may well make you a better person in so far as it makes you happier and what could be wrong with that?
Other than that, I would suggest that the only form of discipline likely to be of service in the wider world is that of the self motivated variety.
She didn’t entirely agree with that response:
There is a big difference between “discipline” and “punishment” to most people…..that is why I used the word PUNISHMENT.
And personally…..I think spanking can “discipline” a person too if that is where their mind/body allows it to be used to/for but that wasn’t the purpose of this dialogue. (but happy to respond to that issue too.)
If I was a person who ran late places and it was deemed a problem I couldn’t get under control and sought help to correct…..some horrible severe x amount (or some top/dom determined level) of a wicked device (not going to name which ones I think are wicked) would be at least something to test to see if it would be a good “behaviour modification” device….maybe, maybe not.
His response:
I have just consulted the dictionary and the “big difference between discipline and punishment” is obviously as opaque to the compilers as it is to me!Not that it matters greatly as I find semantic battles are usually an exercise in futility.
What it boils down to I guess, is what are you seeking to achieve by punishment, behaviour modification, discipline, correction or any of the other words that can be found side by side in the dictionary.Could be I am missing something on that score.
So, I had to get in my own thoughts on the matter:
I think the dictionary does not have the same nuances as some D/s people put upon the words “discipline” and “punishment.”
When my Master and I got together, he let me know there would be three kinds of spankings.
1.) The Roleplaying mutually fun kind. (Well, fun if you’re a masochist!)
2.) Discipline. What my Master meant, and I think she means, is:
In its most general sense, discipline refers to systematic instruction given to a disciple. This sense also preserves the origin of the word, which is Latin disciplina “instruction”, from the root discere “to learn,” and from which discipulus “disciple, pupil” also derives.
To discipline thus means to instruct a person or animal to follow a particular code of conduct, or to adhere to a certain “order.” Consequently, “in the field of child development, discipline refers to methods of modeling character and of teaching self-control and acceptable behavior.” So for example, to discipline a child to wash her/his hands before meals. Here, ‘washing hands before meals’ is a particular pattern of behaviour, and the child is being disciplined to adopt that pattern. ‘To disciple’ also gives rise to the word disciplinarian, which denotes a person who enforces order. An ideal disciplinarian is one who can enforce order without coercion for “family specialists agree that using physical force, threats and put-downs can interfere with a child’s healthy development.” Usually however, the phrase ‘to discipline’ carries a negative connotation. This is because enforcement of order – that is, ensuring instructions are carried out – is often regulated through punishment.
(From Wikipedia)
So you see, a disciplinary procedure CAN BE, but is not ALWAYS punishment. Discipline can be given when the submissive has done nothing wrong at all, to continue “modeling character, and teaching self-control, and acceptable behaviour.”
3.) Punishment.
Punishment is from the Latin punire: inflict a penalty on, cause pain for some offense. It is retribution given for transgressing a law or command (including prohibitions) given by some authority.
(From Wikipedia)
In a working D/s relationship, punishment is not given UNLESS the submissive has done something to earn it. By definition, it must not be enjoyable — or else that would encourage the submissive to repeat performances to get attention and satisfaction — which would rather destroy the whole point of the exercise!
So, you see, while disciplining someone can be punishment, not all discipline is punishment. Indeed, my Master has given me many discipline sessions that were enjoyable to me (even if they were rather intense and pushed my boundaries). Punishment sessions, while they are happening, are NOT enjoyable!
The two words overlap in the verb form (but not so much in the noun) as they are both meted out by an authority for the correction of the submissive. Discipline can however be given before — and potentially thus averting — any breach of acceptable behaviour. And it can be continued after a punishment is over, to make sure the lessons from the punishment “stick” in the submissive’s mind!
Happily, the original poster liked what I wrote! So everyone is happy (no drama here, unlike some other parts of FetLife!) but I wanted to share with all of you my thoughts on discipline and punishment. (Heh. Since it’s a real theme in my own life, these days!)
Northern Spanking
I Feel Myself.com
Hope you have...
The dramas on Fet can get a bit annoying hmm sort of like family? Anyway Zille you explained everything just right!
I’m with you, Zille. I am a bonafide heavy-duty spanking fetishist and I LOVE getting my bottom warmed, tanned, and marked, but when I deserve a true punishment–well, my partner and I know the difference and I feel the difference with every stroke. It’s not fun (while it’s happening), and it’s not discipline.
And no kink group is better than anyone other!
I have my theory on the various flavors of (said lovingly) sexual deviance. I first noticed it with poly related groups. There is a tendency, especially among the more learned members of the group to philosophize an activity to death. My theory is that when you are ‘breaking from the norm’ you still tend to hold onto the morality of the ‘norm’ and so there is that little par of your brain that says ’shouldn’t be doing this’. In order to get away from that, there is a tendency to explore the philosophy of why, how, the spiritual meaning etc.
All of that is fine and healthy if it works for the individual. The problem happens when that person has put all that work into it for themselves then decides that all that work should belong to the people. What you have now is a codified list of rules for how to be whatever label you’ve given yourself and people with similar interests. the next step up along the line is that if you have rules and follow the rules then you’re “in” but if not, well.. they’re doing it wrong and then it becomes a case of looking your nose down on ‘them’.
The other problem I’m noticing here is the limitation of the language. A dictionary, unless there is some Fetishists Dictionary that I’m not aware of, is going to be a generalists tool. The general publics understanding of what punishment is vs. what discipline is doesn’t need to get that deep. When you are dealing with specialists language it gets bigger. A scientist who studies Avalances has over 80 terms just for describing types of snow (despite apocrapha to the countrary, Inuit do not) because they specialize in the study of snow. Someone who studies spankings and similar activities will likely have as many or more to describe the various acts (and connotations to an act). And like a child who moves from an 8 pack of crayons to the big 64 box of crayons, a spanking artist’s pallet also expands by having those words to use.